Tenacious Steel

[captnvegtble]

Has there been talk of producing the Tenacious in a different steel? I got the Green Tenacious for my son, and I love the ergonomics of the knife, but I'm not crazy about 8CR13MOV. I don't like how it sharpens and takes an edge. If it was in a different steel, I'm thinking I would buy it for myself. Wasn't Spyderco going to transition their value line folders to BD1?

[sal]

Hi Captn,

Some of the makers have a hard time with other steels. We've managed to get one maker to use BD-1 and heat treat it correctly (The new Raaven 2 and Crow 2), but the Tenacious maker hasn't got it yet.

sal

[Cliff Stamp]

.. I'm not crazy about 8CR13MOV. I don't like how it sharpens and takes an edge

BD1 is the same class of steel in those respects which are actually very high in 8Cr13MoV. What kinds of issues were you having?

[captnvegtble]

Thanks for the clarification Sal. This is my first time buying a Spyderco built in China and the quality (as many have said before) is excellent. I also love the ergonomics of the Tenacious.

Cliff, to be honest, the only other Spyderco I own in 8CR13MOV is the Kiwi3. I like my edges either toothy from higher Vanadium content (I prefer S30V over VG-10), or cell-slicing sharp like SuperBlue. When I've worked with the 8CR13MOV on my Kiwi3, I just couldn't get the edge as keen as I normally can or like. Not exactly sure why... My conclusion was that it's partly from a different "feel" of the steel... probably also partly due to my mediocre "intermediate" sharpening skills. Maybe also partly the geometry of the grind. Perhaps I'll like 8CR13MOV better in the Tenacious. I know better when I take down the bevel on the knife.

I know BD1 is very similar to 8CR13MOV and has about the same Carbon (0.9%) and Vanadium (0.1%) content, so perhaps asking soley about BD1 was misleading. I'm just curious to see other steels used in this very comfortable and ergonomic knife.

[captnvegtble]

"slippery". That's the term I would give to the edge on 8CR13MOV. That's the part I don't like.

[Cliff Stamp]

Maybe also partly the geometry of the grind.

I would suspect it is that influence vs the steel as that steel is very easy to grind and can easily obtain a very high sharpness compared to even steels like VG-10.

[Cliff Stamp]

"slippery". That's the term I would give to the edge on 8CR13MOV. That's the part I don't like.

How are you sharpening?

[captnvegtble]

Free-hand on bench stones. I start with DMT Coarse, then DMT Fine. Then I move over to the Spyderco Medium and then Fine stones. I've recently stopped using the Spyderco Ceramic fine stones because I like more of a utility edge.

[Cliff Stamp]

When you note the apex which forms is :

-slippery on the 8Cr13MoV
-toothy on S30V
-cell-slicing on the SuperBlue

is this all with the same finish, the Spyderco Fine?

[Blerv]

I dunno. Every time I've sharpened 8Cr I though, "wow that was easy to get sharp". I can't track this logistically next to vg10 or s30v but I also can't speak to accurately to edge retention or corrosion resistance either. Not to the point it wouldn't be a silly guess at best.

IMHO I've always seen knives like the Byrds and Tenacious as insane values both in materials and f&f for the money. Even if you could get something ultra high carbon in it (which BD1 ain't) the question for me is if it would be better for a more pedestrian model in ZDP189. That way you aren't being surcharged for G10 (even if justified).

[captnvegtble]

When you note the apex which forms is :

-slippery on the 8Cr13MoV
-toothy on S30V
-cell-slicing on the SuperBlue

is this all with the same finish, the Spyderco Fine?

Yes. Also using a black marker to make sure I hit the apex. I can't explain it... which is why I was blaming the steel. I'm starting to re-profile the Tenacious and it is very easy to grind/re-profile so we'll see. I'm not sure if I'm going to take it to the Spyderco fine.

[glbpro]

Some of the makers have a hard time with other steels. We've managed to get one maker to use BD-1 and heat treat it correctly (The new Raaven 2 and Crow 2), but the Tenacious maker hasn't got it yet.

I hope that going to BD-1 will not raise the price of the value line. A Tenacious in Singapore right now is already right around a hundred dollars - if the price goes up any more I fear they will cease to be 'value' in the eyes of many people.

[Nate]

I hope that going to BD-1 will not raise the price of the value line. A Tenacious in Singapore right now is already right around a hundred dollars - if the price goes up any more I fear they will cease to be 'value' in the eyes of many people.

The Crow 2 and Raven 2 are showing in stock now at a few online vendors. Priced at around $45 and $50, respectively.

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes. Also using a black marker to make sure I hit the apex. I can't explain it... which is why I was blaming the steel.

This is a common claim, that the removal of the marker ensures that the apex is being ground however it isn't true. I can't see the marker when it is under 20 microns wide, it will vary from person to person. However in any case you will stop being able to see the marker before the apex is hit as you grind the edge. This means the apex can still have damage, a heavy /blunted bevel, be asymmetric or any number of things which will prevent sharpness from being obtained.

[SpeedHoles]

Yes. Also using a black marker to make sure I hit the apex. I can't explain it... which is why I was blaming the steel.

This is a common claim, that the removal of the marker ensures that the apex is being ground however it isn't true. I can't see the marker when it is under 20 microns wide, it will vary from person to person. However in any case you will stop being able to see the marker before the apex is hit as you grind the edge. This means the apex can still have damage, a heavy /blunted bevel, be asymmetric or any number of things which will prevent sharpness from being obtained.

What other methods would you suggest as an alternative to the old marker trick?

[Cliff Stamp]

What other methods would you suggest as an alternative to the old marker trick?

The method I use is for me very simple :

-cut the apex back with 1-2 light passes cutting into the stone with less than the weight of the knife
-this removes fatigued metal from the apex and leaves the apex reflecting light
-grind the edge until the apex no longer reflects light, this ensures the apex is < 20 microns thick (measured it)
-apply the apex (micro) bevel

Here is an example on a normal clay brick :

https://youtu.be/mSt2mCWGFII

[captnvegtble]

When I re-bevel an edge, I use both a marker, feel of the edge (you can tell when you hit the apex), and light reflection.

[araneae]

I have always found 8Cr to take a very nice edge with minimal effort. Seems I have some new Byrds en route with BD-1 to test out.

[zhyla]

If you can't get 8CrMoV13 sharpened, no offense, but you just can't sharpen. It's as easy as it gets. Keep at it, and don't overthink the chemistry.

[glbpro]

The Crow 2 and Raven 2 are showing in stock now at a few online vendors. Priced at around $45 and $50, respectively.

What's really strange is that in Singapore some dealers consider Spyderco and Byrd to be two separate brands - the shop that I normally patronise stocks Spyderco but not Byrd. I suspect that this is due to the fact that the Spyderco value line is considered to be 'pretty much the same'. Also the way the pricing overlaps between the two lines means that people will always buy Spyderco over Byrd.