S110V vs S90V

[tvenuto]

Plus if you do blind cutting it is really obvious.

This. People always underestimate how strong the effect knowledge plays in our perception. If I have a client who misses a lift that I think they can make, I'll tell them to rest while I make the weight lighter. I'll then reload the same weight with a different combination of plates, and in my years of coaching they have never failed the second time at the "lighter" weight. I can also tell the difference between the steel on my various knives, but I do this by reading the numbers etched on the side. It's possible that everything else flows from that.

Also, I think it's worth noting that we are not talking about all knives being the same. We're talking about what amount of the difference in various knives is due directly to the composition of the steel only. Due to the weak effect of the composition, and the numerous other variables (which have strong effects), this is a very hard to isolate with certainty, and in any case may be moot from a practical sense.

Tyson cross vs uppercut = hospital vs. morgue. Sometimes a hundred grains of sand can be the difference. hah

This thread needs a gif for clarity.

[Bodog]

Plus if you do blind cutting it is really obvious.

This. People always underestimate how strong the effect knowledge plays in our perception. If I have a client who misses a lift that I think they can make, I'll tell them to rest while I make the weight lighter. I'll then reload the same weight with a different combination of plates, and in my years of coaching they have never failed the second time at the "lighter" weight. I can also tell the difference between the steel on my various knives, but I do this by reading the numbers etched on the side. It's possible that everything else flows from that.

Also, I think it's worth noting that we are not talking about all knives being the same. We're talking about what amount of the difference in various knives is due directly to the composition of the steel only. Due to the weak effect of the composition, and the numerous other variables (which have strong effects), this is a very hard to isolate with certainty, and in any case may be moot from a practical sense.

Tyson cross vs uppercut = hospital vs. morgue. Sometimes a hundred grains of sand can be the difference. hah

This thread needs a gif for clarity.

I think this may be the case. 99% of the people who would be happy with S110V would also be happy with S90V and if they can produce it for a lower cost and get more people to buy it then why not?

[gbelleh]

Obviously S110V is 20 better than S90V.

[Cliff Stamp]

We're talking about what amount of the difference in various knives is due directly to the composition of the steel only.

In addition to the points you raise, most people read compositions as if they are exact. When they see for example 1.4% carbon they think it means that every knife in that steel has 1.4% of carbon, this isn't the case. Steel compositions are given in ranges and upper limits. The upper limits are given for the small elemental impurities and everything else has ranges. What you read in spec sheets are the nominal values, usually they are either the average or the maximum value. A batch of that steel will vary in elemental composition around that avergae and up to and including the upper limits. These ranges are larger than most people think.

As just one example, the ranges of 440B and 440C over lap. This means while in general you could expect that 440C would be harder and more wear resistant, that is only on average. It is not only easily possible, but on occasion, a batch of 440B will generate steel which has a higher maximum hardness and wear resistance than another batch of 440C. When steels get very close together in elemental composition the batch variances will blur the lines between them significantly even if everything else is exactly the same (geometry, heat treatment/processing, sharpness).

[Evil D]

S110V will have more abrasion resistance, real world use in my own experience over a variety of knives.

I also believe S110V is tougher, but that could be subjective.

S110V will cost a lot more per foot AND processing knife blades.

Availability will depend on runs, schedules etc.

This sums up my experience. The toughness increase has been the most obvious difference for me, despite however the numbers suggest this steel should behave, it has been quite tough and has yet to chip on me.

[Cliff Stamp]

....despite however the numbers suggest this steel should behave

Materials properties don't suggest how a steel behave, they determine it.

.. it has been quite tough and has yet to chip on me.

This isn't simply dependent on the material properties. It is also dependent on the geometry and what is cut.

[Evil D]

....despite however the numbers suggest this steel should behave

Materials properties don't suggest how a steel behave, they determine it.

.. it has been quite tough and has yet to chip on me.

This isn't simply dependent on the material properties. It is also dependent on the geometry and what is cut.

Yes yes Cliff, I know. I live outside the boundaries of the mystical MSDS reality that you live in, and I somehow have the ability to prevent the inevitable from happening lol.

Or, perhaps it just works for how I use a knife and what I use a knife for. Or, perhaps I just haven't done enough blind tests to find something I don't like. Perhaps ignorance really is bliss, and perhaps I'm totally ok with that :)

[Cliff Stamp]

.... I somehow have the ability to prevent the inevitable from happening

Again, when a knife chips it isn't due only to the material properties, it is due to the material properties and the geometry and how it is used. To clarify explicitly, all you have to do is a combination of :

-thicken the geometry to the point the cross section itself will prevent fracture
-use the knife light enough so there is never a significant fracture load
-not examine the knife carefully enough to know if it is dulling by fracture vs wear/deformation

This doesn't mean that S110V doesn't have a low apex stability or fracture toughness of course no more than 5160 has a high corrosion resistance simply because I have a lot of 5160 blades which don't have any rust.

[tvenuto]

I think part of the issue is that people are not answering the question, and it's not completely obvious that this is happening. An example:

The OP asks: let's say two cars were identical but one had a V6 engine and the other a V8, but they both have the same displacement. How would these cars perform (in various aspects)?

And then I reply: I really love driving my V6 accord! The seats are comfortable and it's gone as fast as I ever needed it to! I think the advantages of a V8 are overstated.

And someone else replies: Yea, I'm with him. I drove a V6 accord and it's waaay better than a V8 camaro. It handles so much better!

These replies are data points, but they're not necessarily very helpful in the discussion at hand. For instance, the two people in my example were focusing on the seats and the handling, neither of which have anything to do with how many cylinders are under the hood. Of course, the overall experience of the car is indeed heavily influenced by these factors, but that isn't the question.

[Bodog]

I think part of the issue is that people are not answering the question, and it's not completely obvious that this is happening. An example:

The OP asks: let's say two cars were identical but one had a V6 engine and the other a V8, but they both have the same displacement. How would these cars perform (in various aspects)?

And then I reply: I really love driving my V6 accord! The seats are comfortable and it's gone as fast as I ever needed it to! I think the advantages of a V8 are overstated.

And someone else replies: Yea, I'm with him. I drove a V6 accord and it's waaay better than a V8 camaro. It handles so much better!

These replies are data points, but they're not necessarily very helpful in the discussion at hand. For instance, the two people in my example were focusing on the seats and the handling, neither of which have anything to do with how many cylinders are under the hood. Of course, the overall experience of the car is indeed heavily influenced by these factors, but that isn't the question.

Good summation

[Cliff Stamp]

I think part of the issue is that people are not answering the question ...

The thing to realize is that this is a discussion forum and people will want to respond even if they don't know simply because they like to talk about knives, especially the ones they own. It isn't even unlikely that people can respond to questions and simply say they don't know the answer. Again, a lot of people just come here (and similar places) as they enjoy knives and talking about them is just part of that. However if you want to know the difference, then simply look at the first post I made which cited the actual material properties and discussed these in regards to use.

In short, any difference you see is going to be far more likely caused by just a random/systematic deviation in use.

In detail, if you go to the trouble to actually normalize that out through proper controlled repeated trials then you are looking at likely seeing differences cause by the geometry first, the sharpness second. If these are identical, and you are doing random sampling then you are likely to see an effect of batch composition/processing variance in the steel. If you random sample over multiple knives and random sample multiple cutting trials you might be able to see the small difference in material properties however a few very basic calculations will show this is a LOT of work.

[Surfingringo]

I think part of the issue is that people are not answering the question ...

The thing to realize is that this is a discussion forum and people will want to respond even if they don't know simply because they like to talk about knives, especially the ones they own. It isn't even unlikely that people can respond to questions and simply say they don't know the answer. Again, a lot of people just come here (and similar places) as they enjoy knives and talking about them is just part of that. However if you want to know the difference, then simply look at the first post I made which cited the actual material properties and discussed these in regards to use.

In short, any difference you see is going to be far more likely caused by just a random/systematic deviation in use.

In detail, if you go to the trouble to actually normalize that out through proper controlled repeated trials then you are looking at likely seeing differences cause by the geometry first, the sharpness second. If these are identical, and you are doing random sampling then you are likely to see an effect of batch composition/processing variance in the steel. If you random sample over multiple knives and random sample multiple cutting trials you might be able to see the small difference in material properties however a few very basic calculations will show this is a LOT of work.

So as long as I pay close attention to what you say and disregard everyone else's experience (including my own) I should be good to go? Do you mind if I pass this tip along to my girlfriend? I think it will make her ever so much more pleasant to live with. :D

Edit: Oh yeah, and I don't know the answer to the original question.

[Cliff Stamp]

[...]
So as long as I pay close attention to what you say and disregard everyone else's experience (including my own) I should be good to go?

If that is what I wanted to say then I would have said it.

tvenuto raised the issue that people were not answering the question but just talking about their experience. I noted that it was a discussion forum, people are going to talk even if they don't know simply because they like to talk. If you want to know how steels are expected to behave then you look at the materials data as that is what it measures, that is what I referenced.

You don't listen to what I said in that post because who said it, that is the fallacy of authority. You listen to it because it references data which was produced by a reliable method which is known to produce knowledge. As for your experience and if you can learn from it, it again depends on the manner in which you form observations and draw conclusions.

If you make observations and inferences in a manner which produces reliable justification then you will learn from it, if you don't then you will be misinformed from it. Most people don't which is why there is so much misinformation. However a few basic steps :

-use some kind of blinding
-random sample
-average over multiple trials

goes a long way to generating reliable results.

If you combine that with external verification (secondary party) then it is a fairly robust method. Hence why I have been sending blades out on passarounds for almost two decades to see if my observations hold. When they don't, well that is when things get interesting as you have to figure out the source of the contradiction.

[MCM]

What a fun thread! :D

[3lijah]

I have the s110 blurple manix in g110 but that orange manix 2 came out and I'd carry that in s90 v I love the light weight but I hate the navy blue and the bd1 is too soft for me. I don't use my knives a **** of a lot just boxes bags and straps at work. Would I notice a difference?

[Ankerson]

I have the s110 blurple manix in g110 but that orange manix 2 came out and I'd carry that in s90 v I love the light weight but I hate the navy blue and the bd1 is too soft for me. I don't use my knives a **** of a lot just boxes bags and straps at work. Would I notice a difference?

At my current job I carry my S110V Military, I don't cut a lot of stuff like I used to however.

Mostly zip ties and maybe a little cardboard (almost none) and that's it, a far cry from what I used to do. :D

I don't expect to have to touch the edge at all for about a year or more under current use. All I have to do is spray the blade with Windex or WD-40 to get the tape residue off once in a while.

As far as your question it will depend on how much real use the knives see along with all of the other variables.

The best answer is get the S90V knife and see how it does.