why are spydie knife models not available in other spydie steels?

[npad69]

this may come to some as a bit naive but ever since i learned about different type of steels together with their particular characteristics but this question has been bothering me for some time. i tried googling around but i couldnt find any explanation or i may have been using the wrong key words to say the least.
why isn't there a paramilitary 2 in vg-10 or an endura in s30v or a tenacious in zdp or a manix in 8cr13mov :eek: and so on.. ?
can someone please enlighten me or at least share some links showing the explanation? thanks

[GoldenSpydie]

The main reason is that Spyderco usually uses a steel in its country of origin.

For example, because the PM2 and Manix 2 are made in the USA, they can only be made with USA steels, so that rules VG10 out. The Endura is made in Japan, and therefore, it can only use Japanese steels, which rules out S30V. Finally, the Tenacious is made in China, so it can only use Chinese steels, which eliminates ZDP-189 as an option.

Welcome to the Forum! :)

[npad69]

thanks GS! my next question would be: why can't (lets say china) make paramilitaries in 8cr and the US make tenacious in s30v? they are both using the same steel liners and G10 scales right? the quality may differ but they can still make their own versions of the models.
.. or the USA plant could just import VG-10 blades for the paramilitary from japan and just assemble it using the same liners and scales they are using with the regular s30v counterparts? will this increase production costs?
what if they import 8cr13mov blades from china instead and offer the PM2 in more affordable budget beater steels?
there could be some kind of dynamic politics involved somewhat but id appreciate it if you, sal or anyone could enlighten me.

[tvenuto]

What GS said is only partially correct, if I may say so.

Japanese do indeed insist on only using their own steel, and in general refuse to ship out (blade) steel in the raw form. So a rule of thumb is that Japanese steels can only be used on Japanese knives and vice versa.

However, other than that there are no actual restrictions. One of the reasons you don't see more of the high end US steel on Chinese knives is that they require more specific heat treat protocols, and Spyderco needs to be sure that the maker can hold the precision necessary to make a quality knife. Also, the Chinese models focus on very high value and low cost, so shipping steel would eat into that. Sal told us at the Amsterdam meet that they are indeed working with the maker to use some US steel, and it impressed me how Spyderco was working with makers to "grow them up" and increase their capabilities.

As to your next question, China has different views than we do when it comes to copyright protection. I view the Byrd line as Spyderco's method of "quarantining" design that are Made in China, so that the maker can't make some for Spyderco, and then sell some "out the back door" to an unauthorized distributor, thus cutting spyderco out of the loop.

Also, tooling up for a design adds upfront cost, as does training people to assemble and quality check. Having multiple locations making the same knife would likely lead to quality variation.

[Liquid Cobra]

I would say that the PM2 is already priced low enough that it can be used as a beater knife. You get a lot of knife for little money.

[npad69]

thanks for the explanation tvenuto, that was quite insightful.
my follow-up question and this time, lets forget about importing anything: why cant Spyderco USA make G10 s30v versions of the tenacious or endura or stretch instead? why are the models restricted strictly to the countries where their blade materials are originally being made? im sure Spyderco USA owns all of the designs right?

[tvenuto]

why cant Spyderco USA make G10 s30v versions of the tenacious or endura or stretch instead? why are the models restricted strictly to the countries where their blade materials are originally being made? im sure Spyderco USA owns all of the designs right?

Spyderco does indeed own the design, but those knives have evolved with those Japanese makers, and they know how to assemble and QC them. So you see, it is about importing something, and that something is knowledge and experience. As I mentioned before, doing double duty with a second maker would have QC variation concerns. Also, making an FRN mold has a very large up-front cost, and you'd have to make another one (or another set) for the US to make the same knife that's already being made in Japan, which seems rather pointless to me, except for the ability to use other steels. If you're talking about purely doing a G10 version, that version isn't in regular production, and it isn't in production for a reason. The Golden, CO facility has a limited capacity to make knives, and with so many designs in high demand, they can't just add model after model. Thus, it makes the most sense to make models that are in high demand.

[npad69]

thank you again tvenuto, i have no idea that molds are that big a deal with regards to production costs. at least im starting to understand the inner complications of knife production being put into these products.

I would say that the PM2 is already priced low enough that it can be used as a beater knife. You get a lot of knife for little money.

for me its not about the cost but the steel. VG-10 is my favorite due it its good balance in edge-retention, toughness, corrosion-resistance and ease in sharpening. while i consider s30v as an excellent steel it isn't quite my cup of tea. if a VG-10 PM2 is going to be produced, i'll definitely be all over it for sure!

[tvenuto]

VG-10 is my favorite due it its good balance in edge-retention, toughness, corrosion-resistance and ease in sharpening. while i consider s30v as an excellent steel it isn't quite my cup of tea. if a VG-10 PM2 is going to be produced, i'll definitely be all over it for sure!

Well luckily for you, if it's a steel used on an American Spyderco, the PM2 seems destined to get it. It's quite the popular sprint run, for sure. So, either a steel similar to VG-10 has already been used, or could be used. Your next steps are these:

1. Determine what non-Japanese steel is most similar to VG-10 (someone here might offer that info).
2. If it has already been used on a PM2, ferret out that model. If it has not, drum up support for a PM2 sprint in that steel.

[sal]

Hi Npad,

Welcome to our forum.

In reality, it's far more complicated than one might think. Issues, like skill level, capacity, available materials, costs, etc. are considered. Most of our Japanese models use USA made G-10. We ship steels to Taiwan from the US. Not all makers can make all locks, etc. etc.

sal

[CyberKlown28]

I'd love a Stretch 2 Salt version with the yellow volcano grip frn in the future. :D
First 4 way clip salt!

[FDE]

I'd love a Stretch 2 Salt version with the yellow volcano grip frn in the future. :D
First 4 way clip salt!

That's great, but I don't see how its relevant here...?

[Donut]

A while back I proposed having the same model produced across all of the different factories so we could see how the price per performance and materials and fit and finish varied through the different factories.

It wasn't a very well received idea.

[bearfacedkiller]

I'd love a Stretch 2 Salt version with the yellow volcano grip frn in the future. :D
First 4 way clip salt!

The Salt knives are linerless for a reason which makes a four way clip difficult. Making a knife with liners out of H1 could be cost prohibitive.

[sal]

A while back I proposed having the same model produced across all of the different factories so we could see how the price per performance and materials and fit and finish varied through the different factories.

It wasn't a very well received idea.

That would require a different set of tooloing for each factory. Pretty costly.

sal

[Donut]

A while back I proposed having the same model produced across all of the different factories so we could see how the price per performance and materials and fit and finish varied through the different factories.

It wasn't a very well received idea.

That would require a different set of tooloing for each factory. Pretty costly.

sal

(Just thinking out loud a bit.)

So, there wouldn't be a set of requirements that you could preset for the model that would make things easier?

I guess I don't understand what the "tooling" is.

Obviously we couldn't pick a FRN model because 8 FRN molds would be crazy. So, G-10, Liners, Country specific blade steel, a lock that all of the factories could make (or room to fit different locks). Maybe the "tooling" is the automated program for cutting the blade and liners out.

If this was going to be like a universal sprint run platform, the design would need to be able to hold a variety of blade shapes.

[Bodog]

A while back I proposed having the same model produced across all of the different factories so we could see how the price per performance and materials and fit and finish varied through the different factories.

It wasn't a very well received idea.

That would require a different set of tooloing for each factory. Pretty costly.

sal

(Just thinking out loud a bit.)

So, there wouldn't be a set of requirements that you could preset for the model that would make things easier?

I guess I don't understand what the "tooling" is.

Obviously we couldn't pick a FRN model because 8 FRN molds would be crazy. So, G-10, Liners, Country specific blade steel, a lock that all of the factories could make (or room to fit different locks). Maybe the "tooling" is the automated program for cutting the blade and liners out.

If this was going to be like a universal sprint run platform, the design would need to be able to hold a variety of blade shapes.

I like the idea in general. I have a feeling that Taichung would come first, Italy would come second, Golden would come third, and China last. Or maybe swap Italy and Golden. It could be done with comparable steels rather than the same steel and the same basic type of knife that each plant can produce, i.e., 3.5 inch drop point lockback with G10 or 3 inch clip point liner lock with stainless steel. But would you be willing to buy 4 knives that are all basically the same just to see which one executed that specific knife best? I probably wouldn't. I doubt many other people would, either. It would be Spyderco funding that and I'm sure they already know which plants do the best work even if they can't say it publicly.

[DougC-3]

All I know about this is what I've read on this forum, so take it with a grain of salt, but I think tooling would include having all the necessary machinery and equipment for every knife model on hand and correctly calibrated. And people would have to be trained and have to acquire the skills necessary for each model. It would vary from one type of knife to another. Making parts for a given lockback and training people to assemble them could be a very involved process. Since the different models made in each factory are carefully chosen based, among other reasons, on the equipment, materials, and skill levels in those areas, from a financial standpoint it would seem ill advised to me (if not downright insane :D) to have all this replicated in several different plants where it hadn't been done before for a given knife. I think it was probably a terrific understatement when Sal said "pretty costly." :eek:

[SpeedHoles]

It's kind of like asking Honda (just for example sake) to bang out a couple NSX's in the Civic plant, then turn around and churn out some CRF450R's in their snow thrower facility.
While maybe Spydercos operation is not quite that complex, it just isn't going to make much sense.


...although if only we could see the Golden made UKPK get a Caly backlock and some M4! :p lol. Is that like asking for a Ruckus with a CBR1000RR motor? :D

[sal]

Without going into specific details, Doug is very close.

Much of out tooling is stamping dies or injection molds. $12K - $40K per model depending on the complexity. Some of the CNC machining programs might take a week to program. It will cost us a great deal of money to bring a model to the marketplace. from concept to tooling might be $50K before we begin production. Then add the cost of a minimum of 1200 pcs for the first run. To dop that in each country with each maker would be cost prohibitive.

More like asking Honda to build a factory in each country for each model.

Hi Speedholes,

I opted for the VTR1000 motor. The torque would try to pull my arms out of their sockets on extreme accelertion. Had to ride over the headlight to keep the front end down and keep my arms attached to my body. :)

sal