When refurbishing a dull blade to high end class I found out that Sal was 100% correct

[Brunzenstein48]

mentioning in a former posting that refurbishing a knife by DMT rods (in my case BNC rods) and finishing the blade only by the brown rods is absolutely sufficient for a very useful biting edge. No fine stone or ultafine stone needed.
I revert and went back after going all the way, according to the book, from the BMT rod, brown, fine, ultra fine and stropping with diamond paste on leather belt - to the simple brown stone.

The reason is (and Sal was 100% right), that any polished edge may look nice in the shop and at the exhibition and be the most attractive one for some, probably cuts any phonebook paper nicely - but for cutting of soft material in the kitchen (meat, vegetable, fruit e.g.) the polished edge is simply missing the essential „bite“ and fails (fails not really but is only second place winner by a mile) in the real world test.

My two cents.

[Jazz]

Polished edges are for show (and don't impress me at all), except on wood carving knives and razors, in my opinion. I like a fine edge with a bit o' bite.

[Holland]

400 grit primary bevel and 600 grit micro bevel is the best combo I've found so far

[stalag2]

My white ceramics are all gathering dust as i barely use them anymore, even on SE i find i'm better served with something coarser, like roughened up medium ceramics ( using coarse or XC to cut scratches on the radius to lower the grit rating of the rod).
I use the same method for PE but using flattened roughened corners on the sharpmaker to increase surface area, decrease loading and keep the finish much coarser than what you get on the flats.

I might snatch some triangular and round india clones stones to step up my spare sharpmaker as i just find the ceramics to be too smooth.
I would like to test Congress stones but i live in Europe so i'll just settle for coarse and med india clones.

[shabowie]

Do you find that aggressive edge breaking down faster in use? I put some polish on my edges, but I'm finding good results by working on avoiding rounding and minimizing burr formation. I thought when I used less refined edges in the past that when the edge wore a little that slicing aggressiveness went away and then you just had a somewhat sharp edge where the sides were fairly rough as it cut in. Could have just been perception though.

[bearfacedkiller]

http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtop ... sh#p946791" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtop ... sh#p946792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bearfacedkiller]

I have experimented with setting a 30 degree bevel with the diamonds and then doing just 10-20 light passes with the fine or ultrafine stones at 40 degrees with great results. A refined toothy edge. :)

I have also done the same thing but set the 30 degree on the brown rods and done just a few light passes at 40 with the ultrafines with good results as well. This is a good edge for my kitchen knives.

I have also reset the 30 degree bevel on my cheap kitchen knives on some worn 220 sandpaper taped to a block and then just done 10 passes with the medium rods and 10 passes with the fine rods on the sharpmaker at 40 degrees and got a wicked tomato eating edge.

I think there is some value in finding out how to produce a slightly refined but still toothy edge.

[bearfacedkiller]

I feel as though this refined toothy edge is as close as I can get to a factory edge. When looking at a factory edge with a loupe it looks as though it is finished with a course grit followed by a light buffing of the very edge. I'm not sure if that is how they do it but it looks that way on many of my knives.

[Knutty]

I make my edges nice and shiny, and they work well for me. But I don't ever use any of my Spyderco knives in the kitchen. But what do I know, I'm just an idiot.

[Bodog]

I don't know man. I've used knives from Spyderco straight outta the box. The edges didn't last long at all. I take that same knife and experiment with different edge grits and find that for my work polishing the edge to almost mirror, finished to 2,000 grit on stones and up to 14,000 grit on diamond paste strops, works best for me. I cut A LOT of tape and cardboard. I cut some other stuff. I guess the "working edge" stuff may work for a lot of people but my knives cut better than a utility razor and last significantly longer. When I do the whole 400 or 600 grit edge they don't last anywhere near as long. As a matter of fact they don't last but maybe a day or two before needing to be resharpened, not just honed or stropped. Light easily reflects off the apex after a day of work when I only sharpen to about 600 grit.

I find myself zipping through cardboard and tape and plastic in basically a push cut (though I'm really usually pulling) toward me. I don't saw through things. Maybe it's just me and how i cut things. Fairly refined works best for me. YMMV as always.

Today I was slicing through a double walled cardboard box and thought I was cutting just tape. That knife edge will last me at least two weeks if I don't touch it up at all. I also bit myself twice, so yeah, my knives are sharp. It's always made me wonder where people find themselves when they think a 400 grit finish works best. Again, YMMV.

[Brunzenstein48]

I have experimented with setting a 30 degree bevel with the diamonds and then doing just 10-20 light passes with the fine or ultrafine stones at 40 degrees with great results. A refined toothy edge. :) .

What you wrote in your posting covers exactly what I found to be true in the real world where real use is king.

I think there is some value in finding out how to produce a slightly refined but still toothy edge.

I think you just described it already well:
Staying mostly with the brown stones and let the white ones (if needed) only have a few passes does the trick, stay away from ultra fine rods or polishing to get the best out of two worlds. Edge retention is not a real theme as a few very light (to avoid a burr) passes on the Spydercos sharpmaker brings back a highly aggressive cutting ability within a few seconds.

[Brunzenstein48]

Maybe it's just me and how i cut things.

I think thats a core wisdom:

The actual knife's use only determines if a shine on the blade may be effektive, needed or not.

In the kitchen a stropped & shining edge is definitely not helpful, for cardboard and tape it may be highly desired.

[bearfacedkiller]

I think we may have gotten a little defensive here. I wasn't telling anybody what to do. I was sharing some experiences, that's all. I run my Super Blue Delica with a 20 degree bevel and a 30 degree microbevel finished on the ultrafine stones. It is an atom splitter. I run a lot of different combinations depending on the steel, the use and honestly mostly just the mood I am in. There is no right and wrong answer here, sharpen your knife however you want. :D

[Brunzenstein48]

There is no right and wrong answer here, sharpen your knife however you want. :D

Thats exactly what I wrote - isn't it?

[Jazz]

Exactly. Everyone likes what works for them, and that's awesome. Also makes for good discussions. I learned from Wayne Goddard's advice on the fine toothy thing. Now Murray Carter has me getting my knives so sharp (toothy and shaving) I can't believe it. We learn and advance all the time, and part of that is trying different things. No one way's wrong - no one what's right.

[Brunzenstein48]

What determines users needs in different blade finishing is their overall use of knife in the real world and physical materials to slice / cut — less the blade material e.g. the steel component itself.

Cardboard and paper contains an awful lot of abrasive that is very hart material which rounds a knifes rough edge rapidly — much faster a rutty one then a polished which is more directly cutting trough. On the other side a polished edge lacks the grip essentially needed for fruits, vegetables (especially tomatoes), fish and raw and done meat. A dedicated serrated knife works best for French baguette, Italian bread and heavy German bread — here a polished or even slightly coarse blade is worse then inefficient.

[Jazz]

I agree, Brunz. I cook for a living. My first test for sharp enough is paper, then a tomato (at work). In my experience, if it can cut a tomato cleanly, it can cut anything else in the kitchen. Tomatoes need a bit of bite - same with most foods.
Here's a vid for Saturday morning entertainment:

http://youtu.be/8YK0ykXIbto

[Brunzenstein48]

Here's a vid for Saturday morning entertainment:

http://youtu.be/8YK0ykXIbto

A great video - thank you

[_centurio_]

I only polish the edges of woodworking tools such as axes, hatchets, chisels etc. and straight razors.

For every other type of work I use a coarser finish like 600-1200 grit.

BR Oliver

[Cliff Stamp]

In the kitchen a stropped & shining edge is definitely not helpful ...

You might want to have a look at Salty's videos on YT :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgxcV8cYqL4

If you strop a knife and it loses cutting ability then it was simply done incorrectly unless you intended to do that for some reason. It isn't necessary, it normally is a sign of a problem with the technique :

-a burr left on the edge
-too much force
-angle too high
-backing material too soft
-compounded is dirty/loaded