Spyderco Fire Steel?

[Cliff Stamp]

Misinformation: bad.

Ha, if fire steels can't be discussed in a rational manner then morality is not likely to be productive, especially since I would not advocate existential moral realism.

I do find it amusing and sad in a way that these types of discussions where there is disagreement leads to rustling of jimmes almost instantly. And that mundane and objective physical facts produce emotional responses. The fact that people fear critical dialog and simply want Stuart Smalley responses is a bit less than ideal.

I get responses on my video's / posts all the time from people who are professionals in their fields. If they are willing to engage then I will send them a list of questions, attempting to predict what they should observe/see. If i am wrong then either my base knowledge is not correct or I am not applying/understanding its application.

This dialog then enables learning and the removal of ignorance. Yes its great when someone tells you that you are brilliant, but if you want to learn something then go talk to the person who thinks you are wrong and can make a rational argument to that effect. I would simply ask, why do you want to believe wrong things.

[paladin]

I will simply ask, who appointed Cliff Stamp "Arbiter of Everything Right?"

[FCM415]

*EDITED - Unnecessary insults*

[bearfacedkiller]

Ha, Cliff is a Spartan. A thousand to one and he is still fighting the fight.

[Donut]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see a butane based lighter as something that can structurally fail. How many years do butane lighters hold their pressure?

The highlight of a fire steel in my eyes is the low maintenance. I can put a fire steel away for emergency use... and 20 years later, no matter where it's been, it is going to work.

You just gave me an idea DONUT >> Maybe Spyderco & ZIPPO could do some kind of collaborative effort to create a firestarting kit.

I just found out the other day that Zippo makes an emergency fire starter kit.

It looks kind of interesting. I will be checking it out soon.

[rodloos]

I don't think the popularity of a firesteel is just due to hype, I think it is *very* useful to bring along in the field.

I have no objection to anyone carrying a lighter also, I like redundancy, and I am not an "ounce-counter". But yes I have had a lighter fail (brand-new, fresh out of the package) even though I could see that it had fluid in it, i.e. hadn't cracked and leaked out. Just wouldn't light. When it comes to lighting a BBQ or camp stove, or a candle, I even prefer a lighter (the kind that have the extra reach to put the flame where you want it, though they take more space).

First time I carried a Zippo camping, it worked great, but the next time I tried it a few months later, it was out of fuel. I hadn't realized it would evaporate that quickly. (I'm not a smoker so don't use a lighter regularly). The Bics I had tried didn't evaporate like that.

Yes, I have had zip-lock bags fail, many times, double-bagged even. I absolutely won't trust anything important to just plastic bags. Might be my environment, the fact that it nearly always rains when I camp, and anything in my kayak is bound to be splashed/soaked if I am camping via river.

I haven't used matches to start a fire in many years. It helps to know the environment you may be in, what kind of tinder materials might be available. When it is dry and not 100% humidity, I can usually shave soft wood shavings thin enough to ignite directly from a good firesteel, but if it has been raining, or I'm using one of those tiny "emergency" firesteels, yes, I'll want to have some dry cotton or tinder available. I just think it does have value, it's not all hype.

I think it would be a difficult market for Spyderco to enter though, there are already so many sources of decent firesteels available for pretty cheap.

[Johnnie1801]

from my experience nothing compares to the products from Gobspark. The sparks thrown from a dead Bic lighter are a firecracker compared to the Hiroshima sized sparks thrown by my Gobspark Armageddon. The sparks thrown from Gobspark's competitors while very adequate are still not quite as good as Gobspark's. I can light a cotton ball from three feet away with my gobspark if I strike it hard enough and throw enough sparks. They sizzle and crackle for a few seconds after landing even. Truly an amazing ferro rod. The best thing Spyderco can do is team up with them and offer it along with the Bushcraft or Temp 2 or some other survival knife. I carry Esee and Becker for these roles so to be truly honest, it is of no interest to me because while I love my Spydies I will always have a Becker fixed blade and Gobspark with me when I am in the backcountry.

Thanks for the tip, I just checked out a few video's of the Gobspark Armageddon, looks like a great tool. I'll really have to look out for one of those, seems way better than the Swedish rods that I have used in the past. Would be awesome if you got one of those with the Spyderco Bushcraft :)

http://youtu.be/kizrTIZvWHY

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, I have had zip-lock bags fail, many times, double-bagged even.

Were they bagged in the manner in which I described? How exactly did they fail? If you want to be extremely paranoid you can use a bag larger than the lighter, put the seam on the inside, run a layer of adhesive outside the closed seal, fold the sides in, tape that down, then roll it up and repeat it. In order for water to penetrate this, then multiple layers of redundancy have to fail severe enough to flood two independently sealed compartments with three mechanical closures none of which can be directly loaded in accidental use.

I have never even been able to get one to fail without direct mechanical abrasion, hence I normally don't use the tape though I often multiple bag just to have the bags. I have :

-run clothing cycles
-left them exposed to the elements tied to trees
-direct submersion

and have never observed them fail and it isn't obvious how they can fail, especially if you take even minor precautions which can be done in less than a minute. Now maybe in time the butane can vaporize, it can build up pressure, that can break the seal. However that happens so slow if it happens at all I can't see that even after week long trials. In general anything past that is at direct risk anyway as who would advocate putting gear away and not checking it for months until it needed to be used.

But again, this is a moot point because even if you can't figure out how to wrap a lighter to keep it waterproof, then o-ring, thread locker sealed containers are easy to buy and if you want to be really paranoid you just put one inside the other and again you now have to fail two water tight compartments. The probability of this happening is so extreme that preparing for it to happen is similar to taking equipment which is specifically designed to fight off vampires.

As to why they are popular, popularity is a self-feeding condition, ferrocerium rods, like single bevel blades (Mora's and such) have long past the point that discussion about them is rooted in reality. It has become a continuous source of misinformation.

[tvenuto]

[bearfacedkiller]

Thanks for the tip, I just checked out a few video's of the Gobspark Armageddon, looks like a great tool. I'll really have to look out for one of those, seems way better than the Swedish rods that I have used in the past. Would be awesome if you got one of those with the Spyderco Bushcraft :)

I have had great luck with them but if I had to find a complaint with their product it would be that they are quite proud of it and it shows in the price. It is still money well spent in my opinion.

[phillipsted]

For me, the biggest reason to use a ferro rod is that it gets you extra point in BSA Klondike, which can help your troop win. Using a lighter will get you counted off. Most of the other reasons for using a ferro rod are quite silly, IMO. I much prefer a few packs of those giant, orange water proof matches that burn like tiny sparklers. Ferro rods are still fun to use on occasion, though!

Exactly, GoldenSpydie! Plus, the GobSpark makes a fearsomely awesome shower of sparks with each strike. MUCH more impressive than a little Bic lighter... :cool:

Yours in Scouting.

TedP
Eagle Scout, Class of 1976

[GoldenSpydie]

Thanks Ted.

Another cool tool (wow--I made a rhyme) that I like to use on occasion is the "Blast Match." It can be used with one hand, and it seems to make the largest shower of sparks of any of my ferro rods. The disadvantage is that it is heavy compared to a simple LMF steel.

Here is an example of it: http://www.amazon.com/UST-20-900-0014-0 ... B00930XXZC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other methods of fire starting that I have successfully used include the #0000 steel wool + 9 volt battery method as well as a fire piston (difficult to use--look it up). I haven't yet learned the trick to bow-drill or hand-drill fire starting...

Would I carry a 9 volt battery on a 6-night backpacking trip to Gannett in Wyoming? No, of course not! For one, it is not the easiest method of starting a fire, and the battery is unnecessarily heavy. But is it fun to show off another method at troop events? Of course!

Variety is the spice of life! :)

YIS,
Eli / Eagle Scout 2013

[RadioactiveSpyder]

Did someone say... Fire, fire, fire!

[bearfacedkiller]

I am jealous that you guys made Eagle Scout. I was 15 and made it to life scout and was almost done and my parents moved me to a super rural area where there were no scouts and it just kind of slipped away from me. Congrats.

Troop 1 Pack1, Beverly MA. Loved the scouts.

Eli, you are right that that blast match is awesome but unnecessarily big. However, I can definitely do better with my gobspark. It really just depends on how aggressively you shave that thing. If I rip that thing hard enough with the sharpening choil on my BK14 it is amazing how much you can scrape off with one swipe. The sharp corner on the choil just digs right in. You also end up with a lot of the sizzling and crackling pieces on your tinder. Probably not great for the knife but that thing is the pure definition of a beater.

[rodloos]

Yes, I have had zip-lock bags fail, many times, double-bagged even.

Were they bagged in the manner in which I described?

You mean this?

Making a waterproof container is trivial, a ziplock bag and an elastic does it

I'm not sure what you mean by "an elastic" - is that what I know of as a rubber band? Item gets placed in the bag, excess air squeezed out, ziplock sealed, extra bag material rolled/folded over, then placed into another bag, process repeated.

How exactly did they fail?

Umm, moisture got inside? Could there have been abrasion through multiple layers? Possibly, I just know I have had them fail too many times.

If you want to be extremely paranoid you can use a bag larger than the lighter, put the seam on the inside, run a layer of adhesive outside the closed seal, fold the sides in, tape that down, then roll it up and repeat it. In order for water to penetrate this, then multiple layers of redundancy have to fail severe enough to flood two independently sealed compartments with three mechanical closures none of which can be directly loaded in accidental use.

I'm not sure I quite understand what you are describing - "put the seam on the inside" turn the bag inside-out? "run a layer of adhesive outside the closed seal" - are you saying run silicon caulk on it? What kind of tape are you using? And you find that re-sealable after use? (I need to be able to rely on it the second day at the next campsite.) Sounds like a lot of trouble, both to prepare, and to get the lighter out when you need it -- and the bag *is* still vulnerable to things like abrasion in a pocket (it's of no use to me if it is in a pack and my pack gets lost in event of canoe/kayak overturning etc.

But again, this is a moot point because even if you can't figure out how to wrap a lighter to keep it waterproof, then o-ring, thread locker sealed containers are easy to buy and if you want to be really paranoid you just put one inside the other and again you now have to fail two water tight compartments. The probability of this happening is so extreme that preparing for it to happen is similar to taking equipment which is specifically designed to fight off vampires.

Sure, you could put the lighter into a Pelican-type case, I have used them for cell phone/camera/electronics, but it becomes far less pocketable. Even if you succeed in keeping the lighter dry, the lighter can fail. I *have* had them fail on me. I have *never* had a firesteel fail to give sufficient spark to light tinder to start a fire.

I have also been in a situation where the rain was about to hit, and it was way too windy for a cheap lighter to work (maybe one of your expensive wind-proof lighters would have worked) but I was able to use my firesteel to get the fire going. It is *not* that much more difficult to use a firesteel and tinder to start a fire compared to a lighter, you still need to prepare the kindling etc. Now I do know people whose method is a lighter plus about a quart of charcoal lighter fluid to start a fire, but I don't think that is what you are advocating?

As to why they are popular, popularity is a self-feeding condition, ferrocerium rods, like single bevel blades (Mora's and such) have long past the point that discussion about them is rooted in reality. It has become a continuous source of misinformation.

Are you really saying that people who like and use a firesteel and promote it, are not rooted in reality?!! misinformation?!!

This dialog then enables learning and the removal of ignorance. Yes its great when someone tells you that you are brilliant, but if you want to learn something then go talk to the person who thinks you are wrong and can make a rational argument to that effect. I would simply ask, why do you want to believe wrong things.

Dialog is useful, and it sounds like you truly believe the popularity of firesteels is like a heresy that needs to be corrected. I think they can be a very useful alternative method for starting a fire.

In the context of this thread, it sounds like you don't think Spyderco should produce a firesteel because they are just toys or worse, and they are popular because of misinformation? Whereas I agree Spyderco shouldn't produce a firesteel, but only because there are already so many sources for them inexpensively that I think it would be hard for Spyderco to turn a profit with them.

[bearfacedkiller]

I might add that I have tried many wind proof and other survival lighters in the past and while some of them have worked for me none have been even close to reliable enough to bet my life on. I have spent enough on one lighter that I could have bought a brick of 100 Bics. In the end I have found no lighter to be as reliable as a Bic or a Zippo or a lighter similar to them. I have liked the Djeep lighters as well. I would rather carry multiple Bics spread through my gear with at least one of them vacuum sealed for an emergency backup and the rest just in baggies than any so called survival lighter.

I will also reiterate that no matter how you choose to start a fire that I do not think that anyone should venture very far into the woods with Vaseline soaked cotton. It is really that good. I use it to start fires in my fire pit in my backyard or any other time I need to start a fire. It is so much cheaper and so much better than any of the commercially available tinders that it just doesn't make sense to carry anything else.

[rodloos]

I will also reiterate that no matter how you choose to start a fire that I do not think that anyone should venture very far into the woods with Vaseline soaked cotton. It is really that good. I use it to start fires in my fire pit in my backyard or any other time I need to start a fire. It is so much cheaper and so much better than any of the commercially available tinders that it just doesn't make sense to carry anything else.

I think you meant don't go without it? :) Yep, cotton is terrific for catching sparks, and a little vaseline or hand sanitizer gel helps it burn for awhile. I *do* think it is a good idea to learn about natural materials available in your area also. Some areas of Texas have piney woods with plenty of fatwood, but not here near Dallas. But we have what they call Mountain Cedar (really a variety of Juniper) whose bark is also excellent for catching sparks and burns well.

Cotton also packs down pretty small. I have some firekits with a waterproof hollow handle, so I can keep cotton and some fatwood scrapings dry and available.

[GoldenSpydie]

vaseline + cottonballs = perfect firestarter

Another one to explore is dried horse hair. I have some that lights just as easily as cotton, although it doesn't burn quite as long. I always pack a half dozen sticks of fatwood, too. We buy it bulk from Cabelas (I think).

[jmh58]

As I posted at the beginning of this thread.. I too vouch for the FireSteel GobSpark Armageddon.. I use the palm scrapper that they sell.. Snaps over the steel to protect it and throws a ton of sparks when used on the steel!! I have started fires using dryer lint too.. Without Vaseline it burns quick though!! John :)

[bearfacedkiller]

Yup, oops, typing all that up on my phone. Good correction.