New ultimate mule steel - Vancron 40

[Cliff Stamp]

Uddeholm Vancron 40 :

- http://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_vancron_40_english.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is one of the latest developments in high nitrogen steels. The nitrogen level is that high that it is promoted as behaving similar to a nitrided steel. It can reach 67/68 HRC, has extremely wear resistance and is promoted as having high toughness/chip resistance (for its hardness/wear resistance) due to use of nitrogen to form martensite/nitrides vs a high amount of carbide which can produce larger carbide aggregates. This is similar, and I use the word loosely, to a nitrogen based harder version of 10V. I know people interested in using it, and at least one who is going to use it.

Now in general I don't advocate wear resistance = better knife steel, but this would be an interest Mule because it :

-pushes wear resistance/hardness to an extreme
-is on the front of modern steel making
-is a fairly new steel and even new type of steel (for knives)

Now to be clear, the main promotion of this is for anti-galling, adhesive based wear, but then that is also the main advantage of HSS over the cold work steels like D2. Does all of this jazz mean it would significantly outperform 10V for knives? Good question, maybe the exact type of one the Mules were designed to answer :

- http://ctma.com/wp-content/uploads/Patr ... 2010-2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tvenuto]

We haven't even gotten our Maxamet and already you've moved on? In seriousness, thanks for posting I look forward to reading.

[Cliff Stamp]

Ha, blame someone else for asking me about it. I am going to be talking to Carpenter to see what they are doing in that area as the use of high nitrogen infusion is starting to develop attention because of the serious anti-galling properties. Again, what this means to knives isn't well developed as unfortunately materials engineers tend to be more focused on designing steels for the million tonnage commercial mould/die industry vs pocket knives for some reason.

[The Mastiff]

looks interesting. It wouldn't be all that exotic if it weren't for the nitrogen. I was noticing they recommend all steels get cryoed if heated to 2100f or above.

joe

[bearfacedkiller]

So even though this is a steel that contains nitrogen it is not a steel that is without carbon. I am assuming then that this is not in the same class as H1 and LC200N and that is can in fact corrode but that it benefits from the toughness gains similar to H1?

I know that we won't know much until a blade is made from it but bear with my basic question. I still don't really understand the whole nitrogen thing very well. Well, I guess any of it really. Steel is still voodoo to me half the time.

[demoncase]

. Again, what this means to knives isn't well developed as unfortunately materials engineers tend to be more focused on designing steels for the million tonnage commercial mould/die industry vs pocket knives for some reason.

I think I may have found my new forum signature :D

I can see the wry smile on your face as you typed that.

[Ankerson]

looks interesting. It wouldn't be all that exotic if it weren't for the nitrogen. I was noticing they recommend all steels get cryoed if heated to 2100f or above.

joe

Might be interesting if available in sheets in thickness that could be used to make knife blades and develop a HT protocol that actually works for knife blades.

Something to watch to see if they can roll it out thin enough and or have quantities in sheet form if they can roll it out that thin without issues.

Time will tell.

[Cliff Stamp]

looks interesting. It wouldn't be all that exotic if it weren't for the nitrogen.

Uddeholm seems to be developing strongly in the nitride/carbonitride area as Crucible was when they discovered the relationship between MC carbides and the toughness/wear resistance ratio. When that first was realized there was a glut of steels which came out with maximum MC carbide ratios to maximize the toughness/wear resistance ratio. Uddeholm has a huge number of steels which focus on the very high adhesive wear resistance due to the very low friction coefficient of nitrides and carbonitrides. Now to be clear, they do not that if you are looking at purely abrasive wear then there is no advantage, just maximize MC carbides in a conventional Crucible type XV steel which goes up to 18V, though I don't think anyone uses that in knives.

My curiosity lies in the nature of the wear at the apex give then claims about low friction and adhesive wear. It isn't obvious to me why this would have no effect on how the apex would wear and it would be interesting to see if it does in any case. I may just get a piece of it and make a knife out of it, it isn't like that is difficult to do anyway as long as you talk to the right person. All you have to do is find someone who geeks out about steel as much as you do about knives as two geeks talking about something in a quasi-shared language can almost generate singularities.

I was noticing they recommend all steels get cryoed if heated to 2100f or above.

The increasing austemperature puts more austenite stabilizers in solution so retained austenite increases at room temperature. However the standard response to this (extend the quench to reach the Mf point) doesn't hold in general. Multiple studies have shown that if you are using high temperature tempering then this might not be the best idea. Let the tempering convert the austenite (in the quench after the tempering) through it being conditioned through the carbide precipitation. The tempering temperature has to be adjusted and the time period of the soak at low temperature has to be carefully picked to hit a toughness/hardness peak, other wise the performance is degraded.

[Ankerson]

It was introduced in 2007.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/2 ... PiXe_nF_oU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ankerson]

This stuff is EXPENSIVE.... :eek:

4 x 20 x 120mm is 0.157" x 0.787" x 4.72" that's a very small piece.

Costs $38.56

Compared to S110V for example and a much bigger piece.

0.152 x 2.1 x 4.4"

Costs $23

That said for a Mule team just the raw steel cost for one knife would be like $100 or more...... For one knife, and that's just raw material cost. :eek:

Material loss on rolling it out has to be crazy for the costs to be that high, S110V is on ave 50% material loss by comparison.

[Cliff Stamp]

So even though this is a steel that contains nitrogen it is not a steel that is without carbon. I am assuming then that this is not in the same class as H1 and LC200N and that is can in fact corrode but that it benefits from the toughness gains similar to H1?

While nitrogen does increase the corrosion resistance of steels, the main influence will comes from the Chromium. Vancron 40 isn't a stainless steel (Cr is only 4.5%) and isn't recommended for corrosive environments.

I know that we won't know much until a blade is made from it but bear with my basic question.

I think this is one of those hold overs from the time when people would argue about edge packing and how forging knives improved balance and made steel more dense and how the heat treatment of knives was so different from other tools that you could not look at the materials data to know how to heat treat steel. Knife makers used to say these things in part because some believed them (maybe) but also because it makes it sound mysterious and secret and you can't learn about this from silly books or physics/metallurgy.

Now all of these are not only wrong, they are wrong in a really extreme sense. For example tooling data includes cutting tools as knives are used in industry (slitter, chippers) and lots of steels were designed for the specific tooling purpose of holding a fine sharpness for cutting tools (F2). So how could anyone argue that heat treatment for knives could not be just obtained from the materials data when it covers that specific application? A knife is also the simplest mechanical device, it is just a sharpened wedge. The literature is full of data on how to pick steels for far more complicated applications.

Kevin Cashen and Roman Landes were two of the knife makers that strongly spoke out against the idea that knife making could not learn from metallurgy and that knives were somehow independent from it. Earnest Mayer also did the same even earlier when knife making was very mysterious and he openly criticized Paul Bos for ignoring materials data which showed how he was hardening ATS-34 was degrading it (toughness/corrosion resistance) and he was openly mocked because knives are so different you can't use the materials data. But now Mayers argument holds and Bos later himself even switched.

The other way to look at it is to ask this basic question :

-does how a knife behave depend on its physical properties, things you can measure?

If the answer to this is yes, well then if you know those properties you can know how the knife will behave. If the answer is no, well then that is just silly because it would be arguing that a wedge works on some kind of magic not physics and the physics is known you can just look it up.

Now I am not saying you can know everything from raw data, there are always application trials, but these trials are to look at quantification, how much of what properties are seen as well as to look at small details. For example Calmax is much tougher than D2, does this mean that it makes a better stamping die? Well it depends, look at the stamping dies and see if they are failing from fracture or slow wear.

Vancron 40 is a very high hardness, very high carbide/carbo-nitride, very well distributed primary aggregate steel and thus it will have :

-very strong resistance to deformation, flattening
-strong resistance to abrasive wear
-extremely high resistance to adhesive wear

Thus comparing it to ATS-34 for example would be just like comparing 10V vs ATS-34. Now a curious question would be what would happen if you compared it to 10V for cutting non-metals. On metals, which is what it is made for, the high galling resistance would give it an advantage, but on cardboards, woods, plastics - it isn't obvious what would happen and there is no data on it.

I still don't really understand the whole nitrogen thing very well.

Nitrogen does a number of things in steel, however the main reason it is used is fairly simple.

Carbon forms martensite in steel, martensite is just a particular crystal structure of steel just like ice is of water. Martensite is also very strong and hard just like ice is much harder than the other form of water (liquid or gas). As more carbon is added to steel, the martensite which forms gets harder and stronger.

Now at this point you might look at something like 440C and ask well then why don't they just add more carbon and make that steel harder/stronger? That seems like a perfectly reasonable question but carbon also does one other very critical thing which is that it doesn't just make the steel take on a particular structure (martensite) it makes its own sub-structures with chromium (carbides).

If you were to take 440C and increase the carbon content then :

-hardness would increase, more carbon in the martensite
-carbides would increase, more carbon to form carbides with chromium

However the second part means there is less chromium in the steel itself and thus the corrosion resistance is lost.

Nitrogen however is different than carbon in that while it forms martensite just like carbon does it doesn't tie up the chromium in carbides. Thus if you replace carbon with nitrogen you can increase the effective amount and get a steel which is harder and stronger but doesn't compromise on corrosion resistance. Nitrogen also directly increases corrosion resistance through a number of other ways, it also forms nitrides and carbonitrides and thus promotes a very high toughness/wear resistance ratio. This is why it is becoming more common in tool steels.

[bearfacedkiller]

Thanks Cliff.

[Cliff Stamp]

I spent some time talking to Uddeholm (Canadian office) in the tech department and they were really clear this is an anti-galling steel. Now that is straight forward from the chemistry and when you talk about applications to those guys they are super-cereal because it is what they do, advise on steel selection for application. It doesn't offer superior hardness or abrasive wear resistance to grades like A11. But how would the very high adhesive wear resistance effect hand cutting of plastics, woods, ropes, etc. - well no one would say, but that isn't uncommon for engineers without raw data, everything is just a IKD response. However I will be getting a small sample to make a knife out of so now I just have to find someone to annoy to do that.

[Ankerson]

I spent some time talking to Uddeholm (Canadian office) in the tech department and they were really clear this is an anti-galling steel. Now that is straight forward from the chemistry and when you talk about applications to those guys they are super-cereal because it is what they do, advise on steel selection for application. It doesn't offer superior hardness or abrasive wear resistance to grades like A11. But how would the very high adhesive wear resistance effect hand cutting of plastics, woods, ropes, etc. - well no one would say, but that isn't uncommon for engineers without raw data, everything is just a IKD response. However I will be getting a small sample to make a knife out of so now I just have to find someone to annoy to do that.

Sounds like that Vanax 75 steel that disappeared due to the extremely high costs.

Likely will never see anything outside of the tooling industry that it was developed for due to the extreme expense.

They are very clear on what they want to do with the knife industry, M390, VANAX, VANADIS 4E, VANADIS 10, ELMAX, K390, K294, N690, N680 and AEB-L.

[KevinOubre]

All the talk of nitrogen steels in recent years is very interesting. It used to be just H1, now its all kinds of stuff. I would love to see some N360 hit the market in some large blade like a chopper or machete.

[Ankerson]

All the talk of nitrogen steels in recent years is very interesting. It used to be just H1, now its all kinds of stuff. I would love to see some N360 hit the market in some large blade like a chopper or machete.

Not sure what will happen in the long run with them, INFI is also a nitrogen steel.

N680 and VANAX are their current ones that they use.

[Cliff Stamp]

I would love to see some N360 hit the market in some large blade like a chopper or machete.

N360 is an interesting steel because it is also ESR which means it is very clean which improves fatigue endurance/toughness which is likely critical for large impact type knives. In order to get these steels more use though the idea that carbides=better steel needs to be lost because that steel has a tiny volume fraction of carbides, on the order of a few percent. This is of course exactly why it has high apex stability and toughness.

The main reason that nitrogen use in steels is limited now is simply raw cost. However as technology advances this will become more of an issue just like at one time PM steels were so rarely used because of the tremendous cost of PM vs wrought steels and the issues with voiding. The latter is mainly eliminate in current PM processing and use of PM steels is gaining ground as the relative price decreases.

[Ankerson]

The main reason that nitrogen use in steels is limited now is simply raw cost. However as technology advances this will become more of an issue just like at one time PM steels were so rarely used because of the tremendous cost of PM vs wrought steels and the issues with voiding. The latter is mainly eliminate in current PM processing and use of PM steels is gaining ground as the relative price decreases.

It's that and the issue of the other steels that have the same or near the same alloys that aren't nitrogen steels.

So the Companies have to weigh cost vs performance in the knife industry and cost is a HUGE factor as we all know.

The tooling industry is different as they might need the extra corrosion resistance over the other steels so the added costs might be worth it in the long run for them.

Different industries have different needs.

In the end the steels still have to be rolled out for the knife industry so material loss is and will continue to be a very large factor.

If a Companies buys a 1,000# of steel they buy the Crucible then it's rolled out and depending on the steel they can lose 50% or more material by the time it's rolled out and flattened, surface ground etc. Some steels just don't roll out as well as others so that can be a large part of the expense of the raw material. For the Power steels they buy it in powdered form then make the Crucible, but the effect is the same in the end.

So if they need 1000# of steel in sheet form they might have to buy 2000# or more to end up with that 1000# they actually really need. That can and does have a serious effect on the cost.

That's a major part that most people don't understand or even know about.

[Bodog]

I spent some time talking to Uddeholm (Canadian office) in the tech department and they were really clear this is an anti-galling steel. Now that is straight forward from the chemistry and when you talk about applications to those guys they are super-cereal because it is what they do, advise on steel selection for application. It doesn't offer superior hardness or abrasive wear resistance to grades like A11. But how would the very high adhesive wear resistance effect hand cutting of plastics, woods, ropes, etc. - well no one would say, but that isn't uncommon for engineers without raw data, everything is just a IKD response. However I will be getting a small sample to make a knife out of so now I just have to find someone to annoy to do that.

Sounds like that Vanax 75 steel that disappeared due to the extremely high costs.

Likely will never see anything outside of the tooling industry that it was developed for due to the extreme expense.

They are very clear on what they want to do with the knife industry, M390, VANAX, VANADIS 4E, VANADIS 10, ELMAX, K390, K294, N690, N680 and AEB-L.

Well, if those were the only steels available I don't think anyone would really complain about most knives being made out of one of them.

[Cliff Stamp]

It's that and the issue of the other steels that have the same or near the same alloys that aren't nitrogen steels.

Jim,

Those are not the same steels, the nitrogen in Vancron 40 and in other steels of that type has a particular microstructure, it doesn't have the same properties of non-nitrogen steels. It is designed specifically as an anti-galling steel.

The tooling industry is different as they might need the extra corrosion resistance over the other steels so the added costs might be worth it in the long run for them.

That isn't why Vancron 40 has the high nitrogen content. It is why some steels have high nitrogen levels and it is critical in plastic mould steels and it is very critical in Pyrolysis processing which is gaining significant interest as a biofuel. Elmax corrodes very fast compared to the Vanadis steels when exposed to Pryolysis for example.

In knives that level of extreme corrosion resistance has little benefit as they simply don't have the chemical/heat exposure, even plain AEB-L when properly hardened to prevent carbide precipitation can withstand being put in the dishwasher, put in boiling vinegar, extended salt water soaking, etc. . But from a production standpoint that isn't the entire issue because you can't always do an "optimal" hardening.

Why did Spyderco chose H1 over AEB-L? It could be as simple as the fact that while you can make AEB-L and other steels very corrosion resistant it takes very precise controls to get the soak temperature down, a preheat to minimize the time at that very hot soak, an oil quench to prevent carbide precipitation and in a large scale factory then it might be less cost simply to use H1 and age it.

In the end the steels still have to be rolled out for the knife industry so material loss is and will continue to be a very large factor.

Jim who is telling you that steel rolling is only done for the knife industry and it wastes 50% of the steel?

Rolling of steel isn't even done just to make sheet/bar stock which are used far more than in the knife industry, rolling is even used to make things like gears and it is done specifically because it has minimal wastage, especially in cold rolling.