Tatanka vs Voyager lock strength test By Cold Steel

[ABX2011]

Cold Steel makes a good knife. And of course so does Spyderco. They will be competing more with Spyderco now that they upgraded their steel for 2015.
I hope this video leads to Spyderco building a better knife.
I said it before but I'll say it again - if Spyderco had won this test, none of us would know because the results would not have been published.

[farnorthdan]

Cold Steel makes a good knife. And of course so does Spyderco. They will be competing more with Spyderco now that they upgraded their steel for 2015.
I hope this video leads to Spyderco building a better knife.
I said it before but I'll say it again - if Spyderco had won this test, none of us would know because the results would not have been published.

Exactly...

[opusxpn]

I guess CS felt Spyderco was stepping on their ground with a large blade offering. So they did a test to show how much stronger their lock was. I would say that if you want a high quality EDC folder with nice ergos, steel and design get a spyderco. But if you are looking for pocket swords that can take a beating and don't care much for non-knife people reactions go with CS. There is a place for everyone and everything I got some coldsteel products mainly voyager folders and some fixed blades. But they dont see the pocket time my spydercos do so it all comes down to us, the consumer. That video and test wont stop me from buying a Tatanka knife I know what Spyderco puts out and I am confident in their products. If I need a machete, a sword , hatchet or an indestructible bat I will go to CS.

[v8r]

Interesting test, but I feel we are still comparing apples to oranges.
1. Wouldn't the mass of the knife have a direct effect on kinetic energy when it strikes the plate ? Both knives are not of equal weight.
2. Wouldn't Leverage would also have a direct effect on how much force is exerted on the lock as well. Handle length and blade length are probably not the same as well. Were both knives mounted at the exact same point on the bar ?
3. Wouldn't the amount of friction between the mounting point and the bar also have some effect when the blade strikes the plate as well ?
4. The large hole in the blade of a Spyderco knife, as well as the blade steel difference will also be a factor. I don't think most would argue that AUS 8 and VG-10 are on the same hardness level, and or toughness level.
5. How come a dial indicator wasn't used to prove verticle blade play instead of the tester' s feel ?
A test that I would find useful is the amount of weight, or force that the lock could withstand in the direction that force would normally be applied to a knife in use.
This would be flipping the knife over in the weight test and pulling against the backspacer/ lock pin as force would normally be applied when cutting something. I would even go a step further and make sure that the length of the mounting point (weight) is exactly the same on both knives. That way no additional leverage is applied due to handle lengths. I would bet money that both knives are crazy strong in this respect, and blades would break long before lock failure.
All in all it looks like both knives held up pretty well to the abuse they were subjected to. I think whichever knife someone chooses, they will be well served.

[Cliff Stamp]

Interesting test, but I feel we are still comparing apples to oranges.

It was a deliberate comparison of two different knives, not a restricted comparison and a conclusion based on two lock types.

1. Wouldn't the mass of the knife have a direct effect on kinetic energy when it strikes the plate ? Both knives are not of equal weight.

No, this would be determined mainly by the distance the falling weight (and its mass) on the other side of the bar. The mass of the knife would influence its behavior upon striking due to inertia similar to how you can much easier break a heavier stick by impacting it.

2. Wouldn't Leverage would also have a direct effect on how much force is exerted on the lock as well. Handle length and blade length are probably not the same as well. Were both knives mounted at the exact same point on the bar ?

The distance from the impact points to the lock faces would strongly influence the torques yes and so would the distance from the lock face to the point of rotation. The shorter that distance the higher the force on the lock face.

3. Wouldn't the amount of friction between the mounting point and the bar also have some effect when the blade strikes the plate as well ?

Yes, it would dissipate energy directly and also make the internals subject to more force.

4. The large hole in the blade of a Spyderco knife, as well as the blade steel difference will also be a factor. I don't think most would argue that AUS 8 and VG-10 are on the same hardness level, and or toughness level.

Yes, it was a knife comparison. Obviously if Spyderco had made a copy of one of Cold Steel's knives and just swapped locks they would have checked that.

5. How come a dial indicator wasn't used to prove verticle blade play instead of the tester' s feel ?

Lack of foresight.

If you want a serious criticism of any conclusion from the experiment it was that it was a one shot test. There is no way any reasonable conclusion could be drawn from that about the relative performance of the locks or knives in a relative manner. There is nothing at all in the experiment to indicate that if you ran the test again that the reverse could not happen. It is an experiment which was aimed at a marketing purpose, not as an attempt to actually compare the locks and this thread is a sure sign it worked.

A test that I would find useful is the amount of weight, or force that the lock could withstand in the direction that force would normally be applied to a knife in use.

Spyderco makes knives for MBC which as part of the "normal use" are impacts on the spine, flats, twisting of the blade, etc. . Note Spyderco was breaking locks and publishing results long before Cold Steel was. In fact the lock wars of the early 2000's were set off by Spyderco publishing very high in.lbs ratings for locks and a number of companies clustering around trying to make the first 1000 in.lbs lock.

But going back to just cutting and pressure to back rotate the knife, even the $5 imports have locks which are stable in that kind of use.

[bearfacedkiller]

I think for many of us it is not the science or the experiment that we are against but rather just the marketing angle taken. I believe many of us are not against a test like this at all but would rather it was done by a third party. I admit I have a bias as many forms of marketing used today leave a bad taste in my mouth. I have a business degree and took a few marketing and advertising classes and it is safe to say that honesty is not always the policy.

[God'sMyJudge]

That 4 Max in 20cv looks very good. If they can manage to not write anything absurd down the side of the blade or the scales, that just might be my first cold steel knife.

[Surfingringo]

That 4 Max in 20cv looks very good. If they can manage to not write anything absurd down the side of the blade or the scales, that just might be my first cold steel knife.

Hopefully they will go with something subtle and tasteful like "military combat operator zombie de-animator" :cool:

Seriously though, I would agree it's one of their nicer looking designs.

[v8r]

1. Wouldn't the mass of the knife have a direct effect on kinetic energy when it strikes the plate ? Both knives are not of equal weight.

"No, this would be determined mainly by the distance the falling weight (and its mass) on the other side of the bar. The mass of the knife would influence its behavior upon striking due to inertia similar to how you can much easier break a heavier stick by impacting it."

I have to disagree with you on this point. You can take a bullet fired from a 45-70 and a .22 long rifle fired at the same speed, and I promise you the 45-70 will have more ft lbs of energy transferred in to whatever it impacts. The difference being bullet weight mostly.

4. The large hole in the blade of a Spyderco knife, as well as the blade steel difference will also be a factor. I don't think most would argue that AUS 8 and VG-10 are on the same hardness level, and or toughness level.

"Yes, it was a knife comparison. Obviously if Spyderco had made a copy of one of Cold Steel's knives and just swapped locks they would have checked that."

The point I was trying to make here is that it is no surprise to me that the blade on the Tatanka broke before the CS knife. the Tatanka has a large hole in the blade and a blade that is probably of a higher hardness level than the AUS 8 that the CS knife has. For my uses the hole in the blade works better than a thumb stud, so I am willing to give up a little ultimate strength.

5. How come a dial indicator wasn't used to prove verticle blade play instead of the tester' s feel ?

"Lack of foresight."

I guess for me it would be a much more legitimate test if you take the human element out, and use proper measuring tools to gather data, But hey I used to be a machinist so maybe I expect too much.

A test that I would find useful is the amount of weight, or force that the lock could withstand in the direction that force would normally be applied to a knife in use.

"Spyderco makes knives for MBC which as part of the "normal use" are impacts on the spine, flats, twisting of the blade, etc. . Note Spyderco was breaking locks and publishing results long before Cold Steel was. In fact the lock wars of the early 2000's were set off by Spyderco publishing very high in.lbs ratings for locks and a number of companies clustering around trying to make the first 1000 in.lbs lock."

May be so, but has Spyderco directly said that the power lock is stronger than the CS Triad lock, or is it just a bunch of Internet here say. I believe what was really said is that the Power Lock is the strongest lock that Spyderco has ever designed. That is not the same as "My lock is stronger than yours". Also the proper use of a knife would put pressure on the backspacer or stop pin, would you not agree?I tend to use the proper tools for the job. If I need to pry on something I get a pry bar . If I need to hammer on something I get a hammer. If I need to cut something I get a knife.

I believe both knives are silly strong, and I did find the test interesting. However it could have been a lot more scientific,and a little less smack talk.

[DelicateEndurance]

Both have stronger locks than I will ever need. Both have stronger blades than I will ever break. But whereas the Voyager has all the aesthetics of a Model T, the Tatanka has the flowing lines of an Aston Martin. I'm going with the Tatanka.

[MacLaren]

That 4 Max in 20cv looks very good. If they can manage to not write anything absurd down the side of the blade or the scales, that just might be my first cold steel knife.

I saw that. It does look nice. But, what is 20cv?
Is it comparable to M390?

[CyberKlown28]

If people use knives as knives, liner locks will get the job done. Even slipjoints won't close on you if used correctly.

Tri-Ad deserves credit for being the strongest lock on the market. But at the end of the day, you could tie Lynn Thompson to both knives and he'll hang in mid air. That's ridiculous. Just awesome that folders can be so strong and slowly take away advantages of the fixed blade.

[Cliff Stamp]

You can take a bullet fired from a 45-70 and a .22 long rifle fired at the same speed, and I promise you the 45-70 will have more ft lbs of energy transferred in to whatever it impacts.

That isn't a disagreement, again this is what I wrote :

"No, this would be determined mainly by the distance the falling weight (and its mass) on the other side of the bar. The mass of the knife would influence its behavior upon striking due to inertia similar to how you can much easier break a heavier stick by impacting it."

The kinetic energy is the same as it is decided by the potential lost by the falling weight (to a decent approximation as the rotational inertia of the system isn't significantly different with either knife attached). However as I noted, the behavior upon striking is influenced by the inertia of the knife, specifically it will absorb, in impact a force proportional to its rotational inertia.

The point I was trying to make here is that it is no surprise to me that the blade on the Tatanka broke before the CS knife.

The point of such comparisons is that it isn't known to everyone watching. With enough experience/knowledge the outcomes of any experiment can be predicted, but they are done because not everyone has that knowledge and for promotional reasons showing something makes more of an impact than just saying it.

I guess for me it would be a much more legitimate test if you take the human element out, and use proper measuring tools to gather data.

If you want to take that approach then you just eliminated all of the comparisons done by ABS knifemakers for example, knife makers like Phil Wilson, Wayne Goddard, David Boye, etc., they all do comparisons with less precision/accuracy.

In general in any experiment there is no such thing as some kind of required precision/accuracy only that the conclusion formed can be supported by the data given the tolerances. If one knife has visible play which can be seen on video then it is obvious it doesn't need to be measured to show it is a significant difference. In fact measuring it isn't going to be meaningful as you are measuring digits which have no meaning as you have not established the scatter tolerances anyway. As I noted, this is a one shot comparison, making any conclusions from it are not justified at all. But it works well as a promotional too.

May be so, but has Spyderco directly said that the power lock is stronger than the CS Triad lock ...

That isn't why they did it, as a direct quote from CS "The Tatanka is lauded by Spyderco fans as a rival to the Tri-Ad® lock, and as a knife that will "easily take on the Cold Steel Voyager XLs" " . Comparisons of the two and commentary on the forums and speculations on the locks and which is stronger/more durable are frequent. Given the discussion how it is possible a negative that CS did a quantitative comparison, how is any information of that type a negative?

Also the proper use of a knife would put pressure on the backspacer or stop pin, would you not agree?I tend to use the proper tools for the job. If I need to pry on something I get a pry bar . If I need to hammer on something I get a hammer. If I need to cut something I get a knife.

Again, Spyderco develops knives for MBC use, they specifically design knives to be able to stay shut under heavy dynamic cutting and impacts during such. They were in fact the first company to publicly advocate very high lock strengths because of MBC requirements and they had very high requirements for knives to meet to enable such ratings.

As an aside, if you are using the Tatanka and all you are doing is very light and static cutting then it is a horrible knife for that given the blade width/thickness, cross section, raw size, lock design, etc. . Everything about that knife is to allow use far beyond static cutting in highly controlled loads.

[sdedalus83]

Having said all of that, I am kind of a little curious why spyderco didn't use a tougher steel than S30V. They had to have known people were going to do this stuff. You can see the lock didn't fail and that the handle didn't fail. The blade broke in basically the same spot both times. I wonder what would have happened if there was some laminated shock steel in that knife.

The Tatanka has VG10, not S30V, because that's what the manufacturer uses. We'll have to wait for American or Taiwanese made power lock knives for a different steel. I'm personally hoping for a CPM 4V Native Chief with the power lock.

[PolarisDesu]

Some days ago I wrote a comment in that video. After registering here I remembered about it and wanted to hear your thoughts about that video, but I could find the thread already here. When I check the video, my comment was deleted... And my comment was not that offensive or anything I just wrote the conclusion that they presented at the end, fixing the "STEEL STRENGTH" for "STEEL TOUGHNESS" and I replaced the last sentence for "I DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT STEEL" (They were using caps in the video, although, they could have deleted it because of this)

Anyway, I am not blaming the cold steel knife at all, in fact, it have showed me many more applications that I was not considering properties of a knife till this moment. So, if I go into a climbing tour, I will go there with a cold steel voyager, I will stick that knife in between a crack and hang my tent on it like this.



My opinion on the subject... I am completely amazed by how polite everyone is on this issue. This is just bad marketing. If Spyderco made a knife solely to perform in something like this and made a video of how other brands of knives got broken before, I think that at least would get a couple of lawsuits. But doing something like that is quite idiotic...

Peace!

[awa54]

I didn't bother watching the whole thing. Like I've said dozens of times before, I'll put my Wildsteer WX's lock up against ANY lock on the market by ANY maker. You'll snap the blade off before you defeat that lock.

Diggin' this one up!

I'm sure someone already posted the vid, but here is what happened with the Wildsteer:

https://youtu.be/_O1h-XjnoVI

[Evil D]

I didn't bother watching the whole thing. Like I've said dozens of times before, I'll put my Wildsteer WX's lock up against ANY lock on the market by ANY maker. You'll snap the blade off before you defeat that lock.

Diggin' this one up!

I'm sure someone already posted the vid, but here is what happened with the Wildsteer:

https://youtu.be/_O1h-XjnoVI

Pretty **** impressive. Sad to see that pin give out, I'm sure the lock has a lot more in it if the rest had held together. I still don't really understand these tests that they do. I can't imagine an scenario where I'm going to exert 380lbs of pressure on the spine of any knife. So, I guess if I wanna spine whack through a tree, the CS stuff is the strongest lock you can buy lol.

[CyberKlown28]

Two great locks.
...
Can Sal buy Cold Steel and Tri-Ad the Endura out of spite for this video?

[awa54]

Pretty **** impressive. Sad to see that pin give out, I'm sure the lock has a lot more in it if the rest had held together. I still don't really understand these tests that they do. I can't imagine an scenario where I'm going to exert 380lbs of pressure on the spine of any knife. So, I guess if I wanna spine whack through a tree, the CS stuff is the strongest lock you can buy lol.

Kinda like the Manix 2 failure, the screws holding the locking block together failed before any of the important lock components did.

personally I try to put pressure on the sharp side of the blade rather than the spine

[FCM415]

CS vids have always good entertainment value, and I dont doubt anything they publish including VS. tests are real.

BUT

Have you ever seen them post anything negative like their product failing first in their test vids? Ever seen a knife break in their Proof series (my point iscoming)? Ever seen their competitor win? Ever seen a competitor's steel and grind outperform their own blades? Are competitor's advantages like better ergos or easier opening ever emphasized? Why dont they? In the end, it is still biased advertising designed to promote their own. Nothing more.